20 April 2009 @ 06:18 am
Gender Roles in Fantasy Worlds  
Although fantasy novels may take place in fabulous, imaginary worlds, what makes them resonate so strongly with readers is often the inner reality: characters who have strengths and flaws, who feel emotions that strike our own hearts, and who confront questions and situations that echo our own. For many of us, that may include dealing with gender inequalities and expectations.

Today we are going to talk specifically about the inclusion of these elements in works of fantasy. There are of course many other inequalities and prejudices that may be confronted in works of fantasy but for the purposes of this conversation we will focus on gender-based issues. We will be presenting two different perspectives on the topic, and invite further conversation in the comments. We may continue with follow-up postings throughout the week; if there is a particular aspect of this conversation (or a tangent) that anyone finds particularly discussion-worthy please feel free to suggest it for a separate post.

First, Deva Fagan will discuss the contrasting options and advantages of those fantasy worlds in which gender inequalities are not emphasized, versus the many popular novels in which a young heroine proves herself “as good as a man”.



Deva Fagan:

Two of the books imprinted upon my story-telling consciousness at a very early age were The Lord of the Rings and Watership Down. Despite the fact that one was about hobbits saving the world and the other was about rabbits finding a new home, both these books impressed themselves upon me in a way that colors everything I've read and written ever since. I love them both, and still draw a lot of positive value from re-reading them. But even so, a part of me will always be that little girl wondering "Where are all the girl hobbits? Where are all the girl rabbits? Don't they get to have adventures too?"

Thus I will always be tremendously grateful for the other books I discovered soon after: The Blue Sword and The Hero and the Crown by Robin McKinley, and the Alanna books by Tamora Pierce. Aerin and Harry and Alanna might have to fight to prove themselves against the expectations of their respective societies, but they demonstrated quite clearly that the girls could slay dragons, defend their people and generally kick butt as well as the boys.

I will always be grateful that those books exist, and I do believe that they deserve to be read by future generations of readers. But over the years I've found there's another type of book I've come to value: stories in which the characters (male or female) live in worlds that do not feature strong inherent sexism, in which the the characters are dealing with different types of issues and challenges.

While it can be inspiring to see a girl prove herself "as good as a man", I also like to see her prove herself "a good person" or "a hero" or "remarkably clever and brave". Sexism and prejudice of all sorts do certainly live on in today's society, and we must not be blind to them. But it can also be interesting to explore alternatives.

For example, in Ysabeau Wilce's Flora Segunda, the protagonist Flora does have to struggle with expectations about what she will do with her life. Unlike some of the books mentioned above, however, Flora Segunda features a world in which women fill numerous powerful and important roles, particularly within the military. Flora's own mother is a General, and it is the expectation that Flora, too, will follow this path that is generates a share of the tension in the book. I personally would love to see more books like this, where young protagonists prove themselves against alternate backdrops, where they are not fighting against expectations based on gender.

I suspect it would be equally interesting to consider fantasy novels that feature male protagonists who act in ways counter to the expectations of their societies, but I must admit I am having some difficulties thinking of examples of this other than Rossamund, the "meek" boy "with a girl's name" from D. M. Cornish's inventive Monster Blood Tattoo series that begins with Foundling.

Deva Fagan
[info]deva_fagan
www.devafagan.com
Fortune's Folly, Holt, April 2009



Ellen Oh will now continue with some of the themes from her previous TOTW posting on Fantasy in Asia, to discuss here the role of historical accuracy and what can be gained by including gender inequalities in the world of a fantasy novel.


Ellen Oh:

You can’t talk about historical accuracy in Asian themed novels without addressing the very sad state of women in Asia. Quite simply, the role of the female in eastern society is still not equal to that of the male. They don’t have the same rights, respect or position in society as men. And while times are slowly changing, the Asian mindset of a woman’s place has not fundamentally changed. It is the deep rooted societal preference for boys over girls in Asian countries which continues to be at the heart of the issue. The poor and ignorant who believe only a son can care for them in their old age, devalue their girls, leaving us grappling with horrific tales of death, abuse and sexual enslavement.

It is estimated that in the last decade, 8 million girls were aborted in China with another 10 million in India. This does not include the number of infant murders by families who believed that these were mercy killings because of the difficulties being female in poor parts of India (salon.com, Saved or Sacrificed). In India, the Hindu system of paying a dowry to the groom’s family in exchange for marriage, continues to cause numerous problems to brides and their families. The Indian government enacted the Dowry Prohibition Act in 1961 to address “bride burning” where new brides were harassed, killed or driven to commit suicide by husbands unhappy with the size of their bride’s dowry. While in the middle east, “honor killings” of women who have in some way dishonored their family, make up for a third of all violent deaths (CS Monitor, “Women Challenge Honor Killings”).

In China, where the government’s “one child only” mandate has led to the countless abandonment of Chinese girls in orphanages or worse, the Chinese now find themselves facing a deeper problem. Not enough women for all the men. Experts say that there has never been a bride shortage in world history as large as the one in China (CBSnews.com, China: Too Many Men). It has already led to social instability and the increase of crime as infant girls are kidnapped and trafficked across the county to become baby brides for men sometimes 30 or more years older.

How can a writer create an Asian themed novel if they do not consider these aspects of the culture they will write about? We must remember that these are societies where girls are so devalued that the act of killing or savagely maiming them, whether a fetus or a grown woman, is an everyday occurrence. An Asian female MC is an underdog, a character that must fight or manipulate a male-centric world. Which is not to say that you can’t have a strong female MC in an Asian fantasy novel; strong females are an important backbone of Asian society. But it must be portrayed against the backdrop of male dominant world. A world that is increasingly violent against women.

So the recent spate of strong Asian female protagonists in a fantasy novel is one that I celebrate and embrace. No longer are Asian women simply concubines or useless ornamentation. Cindy Pon’s determined heroine, the beautiful Ai Ling in the Silver Phoenix, refuses to allow a man to dictate her life while Nahoko Uehashi’s Moribito has one of the most formidable female warriors I have had the pleasure of reading about. But a protagonist doesn’t have to be powerful or beautiful to be strong. Like the remarkable illiterate slave girl Ping in Wilkerson’s Dragonkeeper series or the lame protagonist Eon in Alison Goodman’s book of the same title, both of whom must deal with other adversities besides their gender. They are all an inspiration to many young Asian girls trapped between the societal view of a woman’s worth and their true value.

Girls all around the world need heroes to look up to. I hope these books are a sign of the changing times. I hope they prove to publishers that Asian themed novels can be successful. May there be many more to come. Maybe then the new wave of strong female MCs in Asian themed novels will move out of the realm of fantasy and into the world of reality.

Ellen Oh
[info]ellen_oh
www.ellenoh.com



And now to all our fellow Inkies and Watchers, we open up the topic for discussion:

What books dealing with these issues did you read as a child? What were your reactions? What were and are your favorites?

What other examples of fantasy novels dealing with characters going against societial gender expectations (either male or female) can you suggest?

Do you prefer one of these types of stories more than the other, and if so, can you identify why that is?

Can you suggest any other fantasy books for younger readers that depict fantasy societies in which men and women are on an equal footing?
 
 
( 56 comments — Leave a comment )
(Anonymous) on April 20th, 2009 02:53 pm (UTC)
Gender roles in Asia
Ellen's commentary is a wake up call.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 03:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Gender roles in Asia
Thanks! I agree. It is so easy to forget how life really is outside of our own realities. Girls all over the world need strong female role models, now more than ever!
pjhoover[info]pjhoover on April 20th, 2009 03:06 pm (UTC)
I'm thinking I'd like to see a book where the guy hero has to prove himself as good as a girl. Now that would be a nice change :)
Seriously though. Why is it always the gals who have to prove themselves, and why do readers always have to make such a big deal when they do? Girls rock. That is all there is to it. Does it all go back to that "Math is hard" comment Barbie made a while back?
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 03:16 pm (UTC)
PJ - I think every feminist has this exact same indignant thought. Girls are absolutely awesome! And unfortunately it goes back way beyond the Math is hard Barbie doll. It goes back beyond Charles Darwin and his theory that women were dumber than men. It goes way back in history and that is why it always seems like we are proving ourselves - cause we are!
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 20th, 2009 03:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]windsong5 on April 20th, 2009 07:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 07:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]windsong5 on April 20th, 2009 07:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 20th, 2009 07:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]windsong5 on April 20th, 2009 07:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawn_metcalf on April 22nd, 2009 10:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stirlingbennett on April 23rd, 2009 01:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 07:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]windsong5 on April 20th, 2009 07:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deva_fagan on April 21st, 2009 12:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
[info]bryngreenwood.wordpress.com on April 20th, 2009 03:41 pm (UTC)
As a child I loved LeGuin's Tombs of Atuan, because she so deftly shifts the focus from Ged to Tenar. There's this political backdrop of the distant male authority figures controlling the priestesses, but the women themselves are quite strong. Add to that mix, a man who views Tenar as an equal and who has to rely on her to save him. Even in her moment of terror, she has the knowledge that leads them out of darkness. I found that very empowering as a child.

Also, cannot wait for April 29, Cindy!!!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 07:57 pm (UTC)
I loved the Earthsea Trilogy and I loved Tenar! Ursula LeGuin is indeed a great feminist and she delved more into the sexism of her world in Tehanu and the Other Wind.
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 20th, 2009 08:18 pm (UTC)
thanks, bryn!! eeee! and gosh, i love love love le guin. my favorite in that series in tenahu (?) where ged is without any power and tenar is an older woman. and wow, it was just an amazing amazing book.
dpeterfreund[info]dpeterfreund on April 20th, 2009 04:52 pm (UTC)
I don't know if I prefer one type of story over the other. It is really a function of the story. I found myself quite frustrated with the lack of female characters in LOTR, as a matter of fact, though I think Tolkien did redeem himself slightly by making each of those female character pull double and triple duty. Though you see very little of Goldberry, Eowyn, and Galadriel, they are each presented as being among the most powerful individuals in Middle Earth. (arwen barely appears in the books, which is another good deed the (female) screenwriters did us in making the movie). Even now, I mostly remember the scenes with those women. I find it interesting that the LOTR purists mourn the loss of Tom in the movie, but I never see mention of Goldberry, whom even Tom admits is way cooler than he is.

On the topic of female empowerment in Asian-based fantasy, I'd like to give a little shout-out to Avatar, where women and men are presented as equally powerful (indeed, Katara is regularly shown as being a far better waterbender than more experienced masters, and even than Aang). Azula is also presented as being a more powerful firebender than her brother Zuko. I know it's a show and not a book, but I adore it.

I'm not as familiar with Asian based fantasy in books (I've got both Eon and Silver Phoenix on my nightstand, though) though I'm intrigued. My one class in Asian literature in college was about medieval Japanese lit, and I was fascinated by the value systems presented in Shikibu and Shonagon. I mean, the fact that I was reading medieval literature BY WOMEN was pretty impressive all by itself. The most important literature in the medieval west was certainly not stuff written by women! That alone was mindblowing.

In my own fantasy, I am working with very western based fantasy elements, and a very western based value system where the sexism and misogyny are quite funadmental. Women are given special powers, but only by being forced into particular roles: virgin, nun, etc. Things that wouldn't necessarily be defined the same way outside of Hellenic or Christian European cultures.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 08:00 pm (UTC)
I totally agree about Tolkien. And if I remember correctly, Tolkien only put Eowyn's character in after receiving complaints about the lack of women in his books.

I love the Avatar but am right now very disappointed in the ongoing controversy that is raging in Hollywood over the lack of Asian actors in the title roles of the Avatar movie. sigh. but that is an entirely different debate!
(no subject) - [info]dpeterfreund on April 20th, 2009 08:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Deva: Appa[info]deva_fagan on April 21st, 2009 01:06 am (UTC)
Avatar is a great example to consider! I share the love (it is an absolutely amazing show!) and Katara and Toph in particular are excellent examples of the sorts of situations we're talking about here.

I have to admit that when they first introduced the idea of the Northern Water Tribe not wanting to teach girls offensive water-bending (since the traditional female role was one of healer, not fighter) it was one of those moments that sort of... made me feel a little sad? I mean, I loved seeing Katara show up the water master and win his eventual approval, but part of me kind of wondered what it would have been like if that hadn't been a part of the show, and if her big challenge hadn't been based so strongly on having to prove girls were as good (or better) than boys. I think I need to watch those episodes again to analyze more clearly why I felt that sadness.

On the other hand, I didn't have that feeling with Toph, perhaps because the expectations she was fighting against weren't entirely due to her being a girl, but rather were a function of her being blind.
(no subject) - [info]dpeterfreund on April 21st, 2009 01:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deva_fagan on April 21st, 2009 11:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 21st, 2009 02:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
[info]moonratty on April 20th, 2009 06:42 pm (UTC)
what i wanted to read when i was 11
The answer, in short, was romantic stuff. I read a whole spectrum, from the most feminist children's and adult books to the least, and only now, thinking back, am I able to critique some of them for what they were--patriarchical trash. At the time, I'd say I loved them all equally.

I believe in "tricking" kids into feminism by giving them the goods (ie the romance and adventure) and throwing in the empowerment agenda as a backdrop. I figure that as long as YA writers have thought it through and know they don't want to plant bad ideas, we can all collaborate, regardless of topic or plot, to propel that agenda forward.
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 20th, 2009 07:56 pm (UTC)
Re: what i wanted to read when i was 11
don't thunk me with a giant piece of cheese, moonie, but i never considered myself a feminist. i like your sneaky approach, tho. i think women are goddeses really, and so so strong. if it takes a bit or romance to get girls to read, then why not?

i love a bit of romance myself. =D
(no subject) - [info]dpeterfreund on April 20th, 2009 09:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 20th, 2009 09:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawn_metcalf on April 22nd, 2009 10:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]opheliastorn on April 24th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 20th, 2009 08:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 20th, 2009 09:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dpeterfreund on April 20th, 2009 08:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
windsong5[info]windsong5 on April 20th, 2009 07:45 pm (UTC)
I pretty much read as much as I could. The only books I really didn't care for were the ones where the children were talked down to while being looked at benevolently.

Something I like about what McKillip did in the Riddle-Master, was to give Morgan feelings. He cried. He felt. He lashed out. Often he let his emotions get the better of him. It made him more real to me than if he'd gone out with sword and harp conquering the antagonists.

Crown Duel is a book I'd recommend for men and women being on equal footing. I like how Terry Pratchett does it in his Discworld series. Men and women aren't the same, but their powers are balanced and balance each other--unless Granny Weatherwax comes after you. ;)
carrharr[info]carrharr on April 21st, 2009 12:25 pm (UTC)
Wow, this is a fabulous topic!

When I was a kid, I admit that I wanted to read about girls who kicked a little booty. (Or a lot of booty.) I was the sort of girl who got sick of waiting for Luke and Han to come and rescue me when we were playing Star Wars, so I grabbed a lightsaber and took down Vader myself. So I was also naturally attracted to books where the girls actually DID something.

It really seems to be a matter of extremes, doesn't it? Girls are either forced into one side of the spectrum or the other. Either they are so weak as to be virtually invisible, non-players in the plot because they never actually do anything, or they're very specifically proving that they're not weak. (I admit fully that I'm exaggerating a little here; I think there are shades of grey here. Just not as many as I'd like!) For the guys, like Deva said, it's a little tougher, because male fantasy characters are so frequently defined by their power. This could be physical power, intellectual power, political power, etc. Even Frodo (since we were talking LOTR earlier) has power: willpower. The ability to refuse the call of the ring when no one else can. But where's the other side of that? The only other book I can think of that turns the male stereotypes on its head is The Savage Damsel and the Dwarf, by Gerald Morris. Sir Gaheris, who is a Knight of the Round Table for god's sake, is a horrible fighter and ends up getting turned into a dwarf.

So I do think those stereotypes run both ways, affecting both males and females, and I think that making concerted efforts toward breaking those stereotypes and showing more of those various shades of grey is important. Otherwise, we do readers a disservice, don't we?

Wow. Sorry to be so long-winded.
(Anonymous) on April 21st, 2009 03:04 pm (UTC)
kid reading
I loved LOTR as a kid (still do) and never noticed that there weren't many strong female characters (I noticed it for the first time when I was in my 30s, and it made me furious. Now I've calmed down!). One of the reasons the book appealed to me so much was Frodo's emotional life, and his bond with Sam and with Strider. I BECAME Frodo when I was reading, and suffered and hoped alongside him. Could that attention to his emotional life be considered a feminization of his character? Or is that stereotyping?

EON has already been mentioned: it's rich with gender-bending, from Eon herself, who masquerades as a boy, to a eunuch masquerading as a woman, and all the ways others react to them. I think the book pushes readers to think about gender roles; I also think that if I'd read it when I was 13, I wouldn't have noticed because I would have been so caught up in the plot.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on April 21st, 2009 03:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 21st, 2009 08:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dawn_metcalf on April 22nd, 2009 10:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 21st, 2009 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 21st, 2009 07:34 pm (UTC)
No Carrie - that was awesome! Feel free to be long winded! I agree that we need to break the stereotypes both ways. It is so hard but at least we know in the US, Canada and most of Europe we've made great strides. The rest of the world hasn't caught up yet.
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 21st, 2009 08:00 pm (UTC)
we love long winded.

and two of my favorite books as a child (tho not fantasy) were island of the blue dolphins and a little princess. both with strong heroines who persevered in their own quiet ways.
(no subject) - [info]carrharr on April 21st, 2009 08:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
[info]blog.marthaflynn.com on April 21st, 2009 05:50 pm (UTC)
confession time: I haven't read a lot of fantasy, but ya'all are helping me mend my ways.

I think I'd like to see these issues reframed. We're constantly reading or talking about "women's issues" and "women's inequality" and "violence against women." Let's treat this as "men being violent towards women" and "men treating others unequally."

Framing the issue as a women's issue puts the onus for change primarily on women, and while I believe we have what it takes, I'd like to see how men react when we stop and say, no, guess what, this is YOUR problem, too. These are your sisters, mothers, daugthers being denigrated by YOUR kind. Step up. Fix YOUR problem.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 21st, 2009 07:47 pm (UTC)
Yes Martha I absolutely agree! Because it is the men in power that continue to cause these inequities. I like your idea a lot!
malinda_lo[info]malinda_lo on April 21st, 2009 07:20 pm (UTC)
Really interesting discussion! I know I'm coming to it late, but here are my two cents... I think I don't particularly care if the fantasy world is patriarchal or not, as long as there is a strong female heroine at the center. I understand there are stereotypes about the kickass heroine, but I can't help it -- I like some of those stereotypes. I think of fantasy fiction as, well, fantasy fiction. I want to be swept away to a world in which women win and are awesome. (Not that they don't in the real world, but you know what I mean?)

With regard to the fiction I write, though, that's a different story. I think I just don't like writing fantasy worlds with lots of sexism. And if I have the power to create the world I'm writing about, I'd rather create one in which women are not discriminated against. That's what I'm discovering as I write my current novel, anyway. (Things are a bit different in my debut book, because of the structure of the story.) And since it's fantasy, I feel absolutely no limitation to make it realistic in relation to the societies that inspired my fantasy world.

I think I've mentioned this before, Ello, when you were writing about fantasy in Asia. I just feel like if my fantasy world is inspired by ancient China, that doesn't mean it has to recreate its inequalities. I see where you're coming from, but I will have to respectfully disagree. :) Now, if I were writing a historical fantasy set specifically in a mythical China, that would be different. But a full-on free-ranging fantasy with elements drawn from many cultural backgrounds ... I feel like I have mostly free reign, other than making sure my characters have human flaws and needs.

And I do liberally apply my feminist and gay rights paintbrush over it all, no holds barred.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 21st, 2009 07:50 pm (UTC)
Malinda - I would agree with you that if you are creating a world that might feel Asian but isn't based on any particular Asian culture, then you have full reign to do what you want. Like the Avatar. But my point is that if you are doing a historical fantasy based in China, like DragonKeepers, you would need to be true to the historical elements.
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 21st, 2009 07:58 pm (UTC)
m lo, how is being gay seen in your book? curious. you mention sexism and not liking to write that--what about homophobia? or heterocentricy?
(no subject) - [info]malinda_lo on April 21st, 2009 08:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 21st, 2009 08:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anesbet on April 22nd, 2009 03:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
dawn_metcalf[info]dawn_metcalf on April 22nd, 2009 10:55 pm (UTC)
Oddly enough, as a gender studies person who is BIG into spec'fic', the #1 example that popped into my mind was LYTHANDE by Marion Zimmer Bradley who is most notable as being a woman in disguise as a man and shedding all feminine attributes or "tells" in order to keep her secret, and her magic, safe. Hardly the message I'd like to send to young girls, but I remember it shaping how I looked at men, women, fear and sexuality from an early age, raising questions in my mind I'd never before considered.
(Anonymous) on April 23rd, 2009 01:52 am (UTC)
It's almost a spoiler to say so if you haven't read it, but Cinda Williams Chima gives us some equally-matched male and female characters in THE WARRIOR HEIR.

rab
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 23rd, 2009 04:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 23rd, 2009 04:22 am (UTC)
Dawn - I never read that book! I'm putting it on my list because I do find gender studies in fiction fascinating.
( 56 comments — Leave a comment )