06 April 2009 @ 07:00 am
Fantasy in Asia  
When you read a book and find yourself in a realm where imagination runs rampant and life as we know it can no longer be taken for granted, you’ve entered the realm of fantasy. No other genre seems as limitless as that of fantasy. But if you peruse the bookshelves of bookstores and libraries, you will find a preponderance of fantasy novels influenced by European legends, myths and settings. And while the stories, characters and world building are vast, they mostly mirror a western world. So isn’t it intriguing to take a look at fantasy books based somewhere completely different?

Fantasy in Asia is as natural as mermaids swimming and fairies flying. That is to say, the mythology of Asia lends itself organically to the world of fantasy. Long before Tolkien invented a hobbit, a monkey king jumped its way through the pages of one of the four classic novels of China, Journey to the West, while Scheherazade wove her thousand and one tales to her Persian king in the Arabian Nights. Classic Asian tales have spawned a vast array of stories, books and movies that weave in fantastic elements that are quintessentially eastern. To hear of Aladdin and his magic lamp, is to be swept away into a world of djinns and sorcerers that somehow has been garbled up and translated to a western audience as a frenetic blue genie voiced by Robin Williams in a Disney movie, or immortalized by Barbara Eden in the classic TV hit I Dream of Jeanie. Meanwhile the Monkey King is a superstar in China who has never successfully made the transition outside of Asia.

Unlike fairies, elves, hobbits, gnomes, ogres and other magical creatures, Asian mythical beings are not well known outside of Asia. The only ones that have made the journey west are ones that have a western counterpart, like dragons and demons. But next to nothing is known about such oddities like the Kumiho (a nine tailed fox and shape shifting creature of Korea),[1] the Japanese Kappa water demons (small monkey-like creatures with a water filled depression on the top of its head), or the Chinese Quilin (a dragon, ox and deer hybrid said to be a good omen and the bringer of prosperity). Where the western world indulges children’s beliefs in fairies, Japanese parents remind their mischievous children of the kappas lurking in the rivers and lakes waiting for their favorite meal – kid cuisine. British children may learn to step cautiously around a fairy ring, while a Japanese child is taught that a hungry Kappa is a courteous fellow that will return any bow it receives, and the best way to evade a Kappa is to bow deeply, forcing it to return the bow and spill out the water giving strength in its depressed head. And so it is that the children of Asia have grown up with an entirely different mythology and knowledge of mythical creatures unlike those of Europe and America.

Writers interested in writing about Asian culture have heard time and time again that publishers won’t be interested in obscure Asian history. That children and teens outside of Asia cannot relate to such an exotic world. I have always wondered about the shortsightedness of this statement for it would seem to me that a reader does not have to find a connection to a fairy, mermaid, vampire or zombie to enjoy a tale about them. All they need is a good story told by a good writer. A recent book by L.G. Bass, The Outlaws of Moonshadow Marsh: The Sign of Qin, tries to bring the mystique of the Monkey King to a broader audience. Filled with monsters, dragons, gods and demons drawn from Chinese mythology, Outlaws takes its readers from the Emperor’s palace to the desolate Gobi desert following on the colorful heels of the tricky Monkey King in all of his devious splendor. Published in 2004, it was to be the first of a planned trilogy, but no trace of a sequel can be found. Perhaps it is the bane of the Monkey King’s existence that it is only ever meant to be popular in the east.

The differences between East and West are too vast to cover fully in this post, but one major difference I’d like to touch upon is in the portrayal of dragons. In many western tales, dragons are portrayed as evil or simply dangerous creatures that eat humans and destroy everything in their path. Even Harry Potter continued the ideology of the dragon as a dangerous and wild creature to be feared. And while there are exceptions, like Anne McCaffrey’s Dragonriders of Pern series and Christopher Paolini’s Eragon, for the most part western depictions of dragons remain rooted in the dark mythology of dangerous, people eating, gold hoarding, fire-breathing monsters.

Contrarily, in Asian lore, dragons are mythical, benevolent and wise creatures that bring good fortune. The Chinese have long called themselves descendants of the dragon. In fact, dragons are universal to almost all Asian cultures and are synonymous with royalty. The five clawed golden dragon is said to be the symbol of the Emperor of China and it was considered illegal for anyone but the Emperor to wear the dragon insignia. In Korea and Japan, dragons are believed to have rainmaking powers and the ability to control the weather. Far from fearing them, dragons were and still are celebrated and loved.

This fascination with Asian dragons has spawned a new wave of fantasy novels such as the Dragonkeeper trilogy by Carole Wilkinson, where a young illiterate Chinese orphan girl saves the life of the last imperial dragon and becomes the dragonkeeper. Alison Goodman unleashes a new dragon mythology in Eon: Dragoneye Reborn, where only boys can vie for the opportunity to become an apprentice to one of the twelve energy dragons. Not only is Goodman’s MC a girl posing as a boy to become an apprentice, but she is a cripple. What these novels do effectively, is to bring the mystique of Asian dragon lore and an exotic setting, to a western world. They also contain strong female leads.

Speaking of strong females, it is interesting to note that the role of women in most Asian themed novels is realistically set in an unequal world where a female MC almost always takes on the role of the underdog. Since this topic would take on an entire post of its own, I won’t delve into the historical significance of and the continuing appalling inequality of women in all Asian countries, but it is worth noting that a novel, whether it be fantasy or not, based on Asian culture must portray the inequity inherent in the culture.[2]

These themes are well portrayed in EI member Cindy Pon’s debut Silver Phoenix, Beyond the Kingdom of Xia. She provides us with a strong, clever and determined girl who, faced with a distasteful marriage to a blackmailing fiend, runs away from home to find her father who has recently disappeared. Along the way she must fight the evil machinations of powerful men as well as kill monsters, avoid demons and interfering gods while keeping tabs on the handsome Chen Yong. Yet through it all, Cindy is able to retain the realistic tone and setting of an ancient Asian kingdom. Similarly, in Shannon Hale’s novel, Book of a Thousand Days, Hale takes us to medieval Mongolia, where a young princess refuses to marry her father’s suitor (a vicious evil man) and is summarily locked up in a tower for seven years with only one maid for company. There we meet the heroine, not the princess, but the young maid who proves to be a remarkable MC whose journey into her own self worth, in a sexist and elitist society, is brilliantly portrayed. These are bright, strong female characters in books I would be happy to recommend to anybody.

But what about the boys of Asian fantasy? There is no need to fear for Jeff Stone’s Five Ancestors series provides us with kung fu fantasy that boys and girls alike have been gobbling up since the first book, Tiger, was published in 2005. There are six books in the series. The first five Tiger, Monkey, Snake, Crane, and Eagle are the stories of five orphans, being raised as foster brothers and Buddhist monks in 17th-century China, although Crane’s protagonist is a girl who has hidden her sex from her foster brothers. The last of the series, Mouse, is the conclusion to the series. And then, of course, there is the immensely popular Otori series of samurai warrior fantasy by Lian Hearn based in a mythical feudal Japan. But a novel with a boy MC doesn’t always have to have martial arts in it to be appealing. An entirely different series by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni is the Brotherhood of the Conch. The first book in the series, The Conch Bearer, takes us to the slums of Calcutta where a boy, in desperate need of something different and wonderful, must undertake a dangerous journey to a magical land of a mysterious brotherhood. Along the way, Divakaruni gives us a riveting view of the culture, sights and tastes of India.

There are more Asian Fantasy novels out there, but time is short and I will leave you with the following link for more Asian themed novels, some of which are fantasy.

http://wonderlandofbooks.blogspot.com/2009/01/middle-grade-historical-fiction-set-in.html

As I wrap up my overly long post, I will leave you with the following questions to consider:

What is the reason for commercialization or westernization of classic Asian themes? Is it a belief that only a pasteurized version of these famous Asian classics can crossover? Is it the belief that they are too exotic, too weird, too different for the taste of a broader audience? What appeals to you about the Asian fantasy novels you might have read? What are some stereotypical portrayals of Asia that you would like to see debunked or are simply tired of? What would you as a lover of fantasy novels say to a publisher unsure of the appeal of Asian themed fiction? If you have never read an Asian fantasy themed novel, why haven’t you? And will you now?

We hope all Inkies and Watchers will keep in mind that when discussing the potentially volatile aspects of this topic it is in all our interests to maintain tact and to remember that electronic communication sometimes does not convey the subtlety of speech. Thank you for reading and I look forward to your comments.

[1] The enormously talented Neil Gaiman did publish a novella entitled The Sandman: The Dreamhunters, which involved the Japanese version of the Kumiho, called the Kitsune.

[2] This topic is of such importance that we will prepare a separate post on it.

 

 
 
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( 91 comments — Leave a comment )
katie!: the wood between the worlds[info]frock on April 6th, 2009 05:01 am (UTC)
This is fascinating! I'm all inspired to check out some of your recommendations. Thank you!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:27 pm (UTC)
Thanks for reading and you are very welcome! And I love your avatar!
pjhoover[info]pjhoover on April 6th, 2009 05:08 am (UTC)
Kung Fu does rock :)

Dragon Wishes by Stacy Nyikos was a great Asian fantasy I read this past year. She blended together a modern story set in the US and and Asian fantasy tale of dragons.
And I thought the Otori series was great (though I still have to read the fourth book in the series).
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:28 pm (UTC)
Dragon Wishes is officially on my list and I'm gonna get me a copy right away! Anything with dragons is on my list of things I want to read!
Tiffany Trent[info]tltrent on April 6th, 2009 05:29 am (UTC)
Thank you for this post! It's a wonderful tribute to the culture and everything that's available right now. And oldie but goodie is also Barry Hughart's Bridge of Birds.

It frustrates me deeply that there's not more Asian/Asian-themed work in English to enjoy. I loved being able to get all kinds of great things in translation when I lived in Hong Kong--Louis Cha was a big favorite. Re: why there isn't more here in the US, I've been told in the past that the market simply isn't there, but I don't believe that. I think if we build it, they will come. I'm glad to see folks doing that. :)
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:30 pm (UTC)
How funny! I just borrowed Bridge of Birds from the library and am eager to read it! And I've been told the exact same thing about how there isn't a market here for translated work or for Asian themed books because they don't sell. I think times are changing now and I agree with you. Publishers need to take more of a risk and give it a chance.
anesbet[info]anesbet on April 6th, 2009 06:49 am (UTC)
Thanks so much for this thoughtful post, Ellen. I just read Shannon Hale's "Book of a Thousand Days" and liked it very much -- and am looking forward to Cindy's "Silver Phoenix"!

I'm adding the other books you mention to my to-read list, for sure.

What comes to mind as the single most moving Asian fantasy book I've read, however, is a wordless picture book by Shaun Tan called "The Arrival." Do you know that book? It is unspeakably beautiful and haunting.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:32 pm (UTC)
I loved Book of a Thousand Days but I have to admit to not loving the Five Ancestor series - however, I would be remiss not to include it as it is very popular.

And I loved the Arrival. I thought it was amazing to have something so risky like that published but glad to see it happen.
christinenorris[info]christinenorris on April 6th, 2009 09:30 am (UTC)
I'm fascinated by ancient Chinese culture, including folktales and fairy tales. I just finished the third book in my series (waiting on the editor for an acceptance or not) and it uses some Chinese folktales. It was so much work to research, because, as you said, they're not as prevelent in the rest of the world, except as fantasy movies like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and "Hero" (which I LOVED).

I particularly like Yi Chi and the Serpent :), and I think I'm going to read Lon Po Po to my second graders in a few weeks.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:34 pm (UTC)
I can so relate to the research problem! I had such a hard time finding books on ancient Korea that I was relegated to buying obscure expensive stuff on the internet internationally. And Hero is one of my all time favorite movies! Good luck on your submission!
[info]cherylkauffman on April 6th, 2009 11:03 am (UTC)
I am not sure why there is a westernization of asian tales. It always bothered me that more asian history and art were not taught in school. It was not until college that I had the opportunity to learn about asian culture, religion, and art. Even in that class, there was no mention of asian literature. I am fascinated by this whole new world you are writing about and look forward to reading it.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:35 pm (UTC)
It is sad to say that I learned next to nothing about Korean history until I read a biography on Genghis Khan. And your right, only when you get to college do you have a chance to learn anything other than western history. I agree that it isn't right.
carrharr[info]carrharr on April 6th, 2009 12:47 pm (UTC)
I'm fascinated by myth in general, and it's pitifully sad that I can walk into my library and find oodles of fantasies based on European myths and relatively few based on Asian myth. So what I'd say to publishers is fairly simple: get cracking!

It's funny that you bring up the gender issue, because I was just talking about an Asian themed fantasy with a friend and bemoaning the fact that the girls all existed solely as cannon fodder. No strong female characters at all. I don't think that this is a hallmark of Asian themes IN THE SLIGHTEST, but I think those gender roles are something you've got to think about really strongly when you're writing in this genre. Of course, I haven't done it, so please take that comment with a grain of salt! I think it would be pretty difficult to balance the need for strong characters with a realistic worldview.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:38 pm (UTC)
Absolutely! That ie exactly the problem! Culturally, girls are equivalent to cannon fodder! In fact, this post was doubly long until I cut out all my soapboxing about the issue of sex selective abortions in China and India in the last decade equal to 20 million baby girls aborted. Not including all the babies strangled, smothered and drowned at birth in poorer villages. China's one child only law has led to an epic problem of no wives for all their men. This in turn has caused a rise in crime, violence, kidnapping, etc. Girls are important!! But until these cultures change their mindset from thinking only a boy is important, girls will continue to be cannon fodder.

Ok I'll stop now. You can see I feel strongly about this. But we are going to do a whole separate post on this so we can talk more then too!
(no subject) - [info]carrharr on April 7th, 2009 12:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
[info]stacynyikos on April 6th, 2009 01:58 pm (UTC)
Asian Fantasy
Yeay! A shout out to Asian fantasy. I couldn't agree more that this is a genre completely underutilized and explored in America. My book, Dragon Wishes, is set in ancient China and modern day northern California and brings to life Chinese dragons. It's resonated extremely well with the audiences I've spoken to, i.e. kid readers. It's too bad the publishing world hasn't quite made it to the point where they approach this extremely amazing folklore with the eyes of a child, ready to read and ready to share. But perhaps as we authors keep sending in such works, the publishing world will catch up with readers and immerse themselves and the larger market in such great tales!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Asian Fantasy
Stacy - I'm running out to get your book immediately! It should have been on my list!!!!!
(no subject) - [info]stacynyikos on April 6th, 2009 02:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
kellypolark[info]kellypolark on April 6th, 2009 02:05 pm (UTC)
Bring on the kumihos and kappas! My kids (and I) would love to read about these mythological creatures!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:40 pm (UTC)
Of course! Cause they are fascinating! Although I have to admit that many Asian tales tend to end in tragedy. which is kind of depressing.
nandinib[info]nandinib on April 6th, 2009 02:07 pm (UTC)
Hi Ellen,

Facinating post! I think at least it the case of India the fantastic and mythological aspects of storytelling are bound in the Hindu/Buddhist traditions, which are hard for westerners to understand and interpret.

What is the Monkey King (who's a lot like the monkey king in the Hindu epic - The Ramayan BTW) without the quest for the sutras ...

Case in point The Cobra King of Kathmandu, in which the snarky cultural insensitivity (I'm sure unintended) makes me want to sock P.B. Kerr in the nose, in spite of being a gripping read. Talk about STEROTYPES. Snakes cults, fakirs on poles, evil godmen, Kiplingesque exotification, you name it - it's like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom for kids.

One of my FAVORITE books is Haroun and the Sea of Stories by Salman Rushdie. The one and only book he ever wrote for children, though it is not usually marketed as a children's book (whole new topic).

The inspiration for many of the concepts in the book, including the title, are based on The Ocean of the Sea of Stories (the Kathasaritasagar) a classic of Indian literature. Love that name!! But it is so universal, I think everyone who writes fiction should read it, no matter what their age.

So that I think is the key. Taking Asian concepts and making them relevant and universal.

I'm not supposed to be online this month (I swore I'd finish my 1st draft before blogging/wasting time online) but I couldn't resist this topic.

Look forward to the Inkie discussion on it!
nandinib[info]nandinib on April 6th, 2009 02:09 pm (UTC)
Ocean of the STREAMS of stories - Sorry!
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nandinib on April 6th, 2009 03:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
robinellen[info]robinellen on April 6th, 2009 02:32 pm (UTC)
I'd say Cindy's book was the first Asian fantasy I read -- but I love the movies (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, etc). I'd say the movies introduced me to Asian fantasy. Cindy's book very much brought to mind that visual beauty and heroic themes.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 02:48 pm (UTC)
I'm so glad you enjoyed Cindy's book! I do hope you will try more that are out there. Its funny to hear subcategories even with Asian fantasy like kungfu fantasy or samurai fantasy or mystical fantasy. But there are definitely a wide variety of Asian fantasy that just doesn't make it over here. I hope you will read Shannon Hale's Book of a Thousand Days. Really beautiful and so very different.
(no subject) - [info]robinellen on April 6th, 2009 03:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cindy_pon on April 6th, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
[info]moonratty on April 6th, 2009 03:29 pm (UTC)
dragons etc
When I was a kid, I read all Laurence Yep's books. Some of them were more historical, about immigration from China to the US at different periods in history, but a couple were fantasy--with Chinese-style dragons. I've always kind of thought of dragons as wise and mischievous because of those.

Back in the 1980s, a (white) American writer named Jeanne Larsen wrote a series of three historical fantasies that took place in different Chinese dynasties--I ate those right up. They were called SILK ROAD, BRONZE MIRROR, and MANCHU PALACES. Since I read and loved them so young, it's hard for me to analyze them (I know them just about word for word), but I believe she did a wonderful job of detailing and enlivening not only the historical periods but also the mythology. SILK ROAD in particular is fantastic.

And there's Lisa See's PEONY IN LOVE. Does she count, for that one book?
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 6th, 2009 03:59 pm (UTC)
Re: dragons etc
moonie, i have the silk road. but i'm afraid to read it. hahah! is that weird? and i'd consider the last parts of peony fantastic--playing on the ghost and underworld of chinese thinking / folklore of the dead. i def liked the second part of the book more so than the first.
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 6th, 2009 03:38 pm (UTC)
wonderful post, ello. so well done! and thank you for mentioning my debut. i'm honored.

interestingly enough, my hub knows of monkey king or "monkey magic" as he calls it as they showed the series (dubbed over cantonese?) in ENGLAND when he was a child. he really loved it.

also, the forbidden kingdom from last year was the remake of the monkey king story. the did "westernize" it a bit but at least the film was made. i love jet li. and one of my first author blog posts mentioned golden sparrow and how she reminded me of my heroine.

the secrets of jin-shei by alma alexander is a wonderful chinese-based adult fantasy. the most well known asian fantasy series i know is the OTORI one, which i hope to read to my monstrous TBR list. =) the bridge of birds was well done and just so so funny and clever!
malinda_lo[info]malinda_lo on April 6th, 2009 07:10 pm (UTC)
You know, I think that the British are WAY more attuned to Asian legends/culture than Americans. I guess that's another legacy of colonialism...
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]holyspigot on April 7th, 2009 02:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
kikihamilton[info]kikihamilton on April 6th, 2009 03:49 pm (UTC)
What a thoughtful and enlighting post Ello. I've had the great fortune to take a number of classes with Uma Krishnaswami and meet several writers who have set thier stories in eastern locales: India, Nigeria, Palestine, to name a few and while not all of these stories are fantasy, it is so much fun, as a westerner, to have an insider look into other cultures and parts of the world. I know Nandini has a fabulous WIP that she's working on right now (that I'm dying to keep reading, btw) set in ancient India that I believe is loosely based on an Indian myth and it is fascinating!

So that leads me to ponder why the western world hasn't been exposed to these myths and legends. Fear of the unfamiliar in the publishing world? But as you said, really at the end of the day it's all about the story. Tell a good story and your Reader is hooked.

Well, your post has made me want to read, and I'll be ordering a few of those books you and Nandini recommended and even better, it makes me want to write! Fantastical creatures, exotic setting, mystery and a strong girl protagonist - this fantasy writer's perfect batch of ingredients.
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC)
I think you are extremely fortunate to have had Ms. Krishnaswami's influence. Would that more people had such insight into world cultures I think we wouldn't be all so insulated. And I can't wait to read Nandini's MS it sounds amazing!
Rhonda Stapleton[info]rhondastapleton on April 6th, 2009 04:54 pm (UTC)
I left a couple of comments on Verla Kay's forum, but wanted to let you know on here how awesome this topic is. I love seeing this stuff brought more to the forefront of literature discussions!!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:25 pm (UTC)
Rhonda - my next step is back to Verla's but thanks so much for posting here too!!!
malinda_lo[info]malinda_lo on April 6th, 2009 07:08 pm (UTC)
This is a great topic, Ello! Thanks for posting it. I agree with you that girls in traditional Asian societies generally are not treated equally, but I have to say I don't agree that fantasy set in Asia-like settings has to continue the misogyny. I totally love a heroine who fights against the patriarchy :), but I think it's equally possible to create a fantasy landscape based in Asian concepts that does not include sexism. My next book, which I'm currently writing, is set in a place that is thoroughly based in imperial China, but it is also quite different in that women are not reduced to only being property. I'm doing this because, well, my book is fantasy!

It's also interesting to me that some commenters wrote that incorporating spiritual traditions like Buddhism might be more difficult, because I actually think the opposite. I find that incorporating philosophy and Asian ritual practices is very easy for me, whereas using obviously "foreign-sounding" language (like more traditional Chinese-sounding names) is more difficult. I suppose I'm aiming to do what nandinib suggested: Take Asian concepts and make them relevant and universal.

Also, I just want to say that the Asian-themed elements of this book were what my publisher seemed to like the most when I pitched it to them. So I don't think that all publishers believe the Asian fantasy doesn't sell.
Tiffany Trent[info]tltrent on April 6th, 2009 11:19 pm (UTC)
I definitely think that one interesting thing about Chinese tradition (with which I'm personally most familiar) is that there's a large range of feminine tropes to explore there. The misogynist trope, which is nearly always presented, is one end of the spectrum. Certainly present but not the only thing available. There are also the great female generals, the Patriarch (who was actually a Matriarch) of Shaolin who developed wing chun, and empresses like CiXi, etc. So, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to look at China (and other Asian societies) under another lens which is also part of the culture. (If that makes sense). It's great that you're taking Asian concepts and making them relevant and universal, because, well...they are. :)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]malinda_lo on April 7th, 2009 01:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
[info]ambotchka on April 6th, 2009 07:25 pm (UTC)
Thank you for posting this, Ellen. Great comments! I'm working on a retelling of an Arabian Nights story that is set in both "Arabia" and China (and places in-between), and am loving it. So far, it's more historical than it is fantasy, but there's a bit of legend-ish magic and myth here and there in it.

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be interested in new cultures and experiences. Isn't that what fantasy is all about?! I've always read to see the places that I couldn't go (in time, space, or distance) and I thought that's what other people did, too. It just doesn't make sense to knock off a story just because it isn't what has been popular in the past...and there are lots of books out there that weren't expected to do well but did. :-)

What do you think of books written about Asia/Middle East by "white" writers? Do you think they should stick to writing about European-ish characters and places or is it ok for them to write out of "bounds"??? (I'm asking this b/c my first novel takes place in New Zealand and is all about the Maoris-Morioris and I was given an R once for not being a "native.")

BTW, Hale's Book of a Thousand Days is awesome. Everyone should read it. Strong characters, strong story, and strong word choices!

Cindy's book is awesome, too. Go Silver Phoenix!!! I can't wait till it comes in the mail! 23 days left, Cindy---are you ready?
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:35 pm (UTC)
Amber - I think it is wonderful to hear you turning to Asia for inspiration! I'm excited to hear about your book! And I don't have a problem with non-Asians writing Asian themed books. If that is what it takes to build a bridge, that's wonderful. I think the importance is to make sure you don't hit the lack of research issue where people doubt your veracity as a writer. Lian Hearn who writes the Otori series is white, and writes about feudal Japan. And the one thing she stresses is the importance of researching history, culture, tone, setting, etc for the most realistic and accurate read, even if it is fantasy. And I think that is why it doesn't matter if you are a native or not, as long as you research the heck out of it and write a damn good book! And the person who gave you an R for not being a native? Boo! that's just silly!
(no subject) - [info]ambotchka on April 7th, 2009 12:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Stacy Whitman[info]slwhitman on April 6th, 2009 07:27 pm (UTC)
I haven't read all the comments yet, but to address the question of why isn't there more Asian stuff here: I think part of it is that the people who are passionate about Asian fantasy (meaning here, written and published originally somewhere in Asia) aren't marketing them well here, in a way that would appeal to an American audience. For example, there are several companies that translate light novels here, but they're marketing them AS "light novels." What average American even knows what a light novel is?

When Twelve Kingdoms was published by Tokyopop, it got shelved in the manga section in most bookstores. How many novel readers who stigmatize manga (which is an entirely other subject) would go looking for a good fantasy novel in the manga section? Then Scholastic did it right: Have you seen the translated Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit novel from Arthur A. Levine? It's the novel that the popular anime is based on. It's shelved in the children's section, has a beautiful cover and high-quality printing, and all in all is packaged in a way that anyone looking for a good novel to read would be more likely to pick it up.

That's just to address that currently there's some great fantasy coming out of Japan and other Asian countries that we could really enjoy here if they were just marketed in a way that gave an entry point to readers who might a little skittish to the unfamiliar (given that most fantasy *is* most often set in a Western world; Tolkien-esque expectations and all that).

On the other hand, I think that we just generally shortchange original English-language fantasies set in Asian-themed countries, and I personally want to do something about that as an editor, as we've discussed on Twitter. I have a lot of ideas that I'm trying to work out, but currently of course I'm actively looking for something that would fit Tor's children's/YA lines that incorporates mythology and/or culture with Asian influences. I have a few more ideas up my sleeve that I'm not ready to talk about in public, but I'm working on them. :D
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 6th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)
thanks for offering an editor's perspective.

i think there is a common theme really in this thread. if you want to read asian fantasy, you have to LOOK for it. it's usually not going to be sitting on the tables in the front or in the store windows.

alas.
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
[info]r_gignilliat on April 6th, 2009 07:38 pm (UTC)
I think I may have to hide after admitting this, but the only Asian book I've read is Memoirs of a Geisha. And, it's not even fantasy. Mulan, the Disney movie, is one of my favorites and that has a lot of myth in it, but it's a movie not a book.

I love that Asian literature's dragons are benevolent creatures. I didn’t know that until I read your post. I’m going to look for the Dragonkeeper trilogy and read them. They sound great. I’m really looking forward to reading Cindy’s book too.

This is a really interesting topic, Ellen. I think you’ve raised the bar on our future posts and I’m having a bit of stage fright now, even thinking of posting.

I bow down before your greatness :)
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 6th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)
don't feel bad. i never read any until i wrote one and began actively searching for titles to read. and found few.
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 6th, 2009 11:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Stacy Whitman[info]slwhitman on April 6th, 2009 07:52 pm (UTC)
A forgotten thought: part of the reason I think that we short-change (on the publishing end) Asian-inspired/themed fantasy is the cultural appropriation issue. There are few Asian-Americans working in children's genre fiction on the publishing side (I know one Asian American editor in children's, and she's more into realism and picture books; I'm sure there are more, but I just don't know them). The majority of us editors are white women, and many authors submitting Asian-inspired/themed work tend to be white as well. Of course, the most important thing is that the author know what they're talking about with whatever culture the story is inspired by (Shannon Hale is a great example of that), but it is something we worry about on the publisher end of things.

So that leaves me with the question from the publishing side of things: How do we balance our general unfamiliarity with the culture with our desire to bring out the awesome stories that can be found in Asian cultures? (I mean, I *wanted* to grow up to be Japanese when I was a kid, but that doesn't mean I know what it's actually like to be Japanese, for example. I can immerse myself in the culture—and I fully admit to loving anime and manga, loving to find Asian-themed/inspired novels, etc.—but even having had several Korean and Chinese roommates, I am still an outsider to the culture because I am not Asian myself.) Of course, the obvious answer is to make sure we buy books by Asian and Asian-American authors, but what about the in-between, the authors who love those cultures and myths and want to work with those stories, but aren’t Asian? That tends to be a grey area that on the publishing end of things, we tend to be much more cautious about.
malinda_lo[info]malinda_lo on April 6th, 2009 08:12 pm (UTC)
I think you raise a very interesting question, but I'd like to propose that there is a difference between books about Asian-American characters and books inspired by traditional Asian folktales and myths. Books about Asian-American characters can certainly be written by non-Asian-American writers, but in this area, I would personally be more attuned to the possibility of cultural appropriation, because these books are supposed to be realistic.

In fantasy, I really do think the door is much wider. A fantasy world is just that -- fantasy. Sure, it can be based in many different traditions, but I think the bigger problem with fantasy is authors falling into traditional white/European/patriarchal tropes without thinking about it, NOT that they would improperly represent a Japanese childhood. I mean, in a fantasy novel, Japan itself is probably not going to exist. The world in the book may be based on Japanese myths, but it's likely that the world is not supposed to actually be Japan. Does this make sense?
(no subject) - [info]slwhitman on April 6th, 2009 10:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]slwhitman on April 7th, 2009 12:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
Vivian Lee Mahoney[info]hipwritermama on April 6th, 2009 07:54 pm (UTC)
Great post! I haven't read that much of the Asian fantasy, except for the Otori books (which I really enjoyed) and Moribito-Guardian of the Spirit (which has a strong female protagonist). Sadly, I haven't read anything else in this genre.

Thanks for your recommendations!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:13 am (UTC)
You're welcome! And glad to see you here!
ejabbott[info]ejabbott on April 6th, 2009 09:06 pm (UTC)
Great to see this post connecting with so many! I have read Laurence Yep's books with my son who loved them. I read Moonshadow Marsh a couple of years ago and didn't love it, but definitely felt that this was a mythology I could get into. Similarly, I teach folktales from around the world to my ninth graders and they eat them up--from all over the world! The Ramayana, The Arabian Nights--I love these stories, and it amazes me to hear that publishers would be closed off to them--especially with the success of something like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. The woman warrior myth is such a great tale! I read Maxine Hong Kingston's version and it has stayed with me for years. Thanks so much, Ellen, for giving us all so much to think about and a list of books to pick up!
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:14 am (UTC)
Darn, I should have mentioned Yep's books! But my post would have been too long! but glad to hear that students are also enjoying the international folktales!
imzadidragonfly[info]imzadidragonfly on April 6th, 2009 09:27 pm (UTC)
You've just added a handful of books to my wish list. Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea series actually got me interested in learning more about Asian folklore. Especially the last two books that introduced to me the idea of humans evolving from dragons. I was absolutely enamored with the concept. I found the idea totally magical. Actually, I still am enamored and I still find it magical
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:15 am (UTC)
I adore Ursula LeGuin! I credit her with my passion for fantasy! And yes, I'm still enamored too!
urameshiya[info]urameshiya on April 6th, 2009 09:51 pm (UTC)
Fantastic post. I am always telling my friends about the thousands of different mythical creatures that dwell on this side of the globe. It really is a rich area.

My middle grade fantasy novel is about kappa. Secret Agent Man is currently shopping it around. There really is so much yet to introduce to readers who don't speak or read Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc.

terrie
ellen_oh[info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:15 am (UTC)
Hey Terrie! If anyone would appreciate this post, I knew it would be you, Ms. Kappa No He!

And I so want to read your MG fantasy!!!
Mike Jung[info]mike_jung on April 6th, 2009 10:30 pm (UTC)
Ellen, this is a great post that's spurred a great discussion!

I confess that I haven't read a lot of fantasy rooted in Asian culture/traditions, mostly because I haven't made the effort to search for it. Which I think is indicative of Asian fantasy's place in the larger fantasy continuum - under the radar, really.

Malinda makes an interesting point about representing the unequal treatment of females in traditional Asian cultures - the misogyny doesn't necessarily have to be reflected in the fantasy world that one creates, although I'd also argue that writing a female character that knocks the patriarchy back on its heels IS an accurate way of reflecting it, because I know that the desire to break free of those patriarchal systems is not an uncommon one.

The cultural differences between East and West can be pretty stark in other ways too, and I wonder how often those things get in the way of crossover success. Traditional Asian societies tend to be pretty conformist, for example, while the culture of the United States is one of extreme individualism, sometimes to an unhealthy degree. How much does traditional Asian fantasy literature reflect something like that, and do the existing examples of successful crossover confront that difference?

Let me say it again - GREAT topic, Ellen. Rah!
cindy_pon[info]cindy_pon on April 6th, 2009 11:17 pm (UTC)
it's really difficult. and a fine balance. i used the real themes from chinese culture of filial piety and a women's place within the inner quarters for my debut. BUT i also axed foot binding as there was no way that my heroine could hobble far if i were to stay historically accurate. and i was so bogged down by the historical details at first--when i finally realized that silver phoenix is FANTASY first. not historical.

having said that, i still had a reviewer (thus far) say she found the idea of a girl traveling along in that culture difficult to believe.
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on April 8th, 2009 12:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ellen_oh on April 7th, 2009 12:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
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