First, Cindy, it's great to see you doing this here. :) To answer your last questions: what would it be like to write a fantasy novel without any of these elements? would it be possible?

I personally don't think so. The monomyth is essential in creating the hero(ine) story. It's been used for ages, centuries, so it's obviously a proven, effective way to tell a story.

As for writing something "new", now a days, we all take from something else. I don't think it's possible to create something 100% original, at least not something that will end up published and salable. There's a reason the monomyth, and other certain story structures are around . . . because we as humans thrive on stories that have a certain predictability. And I also think anything creative, whether it be writing, making film, photography, art . . . it all stems from other works. We see things or read things that inspire us or become a catalyst for new ideas.

And without making this any longer I'll stop there! Looking forward to the sequel, loved the read.

yay! it's so great to have you comment, christa!
hope the bubs are well and i'm amazed you finished
your novel, congrats again!

i agree with your points.

but i think there is a fine line of being
too derivative--even if everything that is
written cannot help but be. because all good
writers must be readers. and we find inspiration
in a lot of our favorite reads.

i do think this is why VOICE is so important.

and thank you for reading my debut!

how does the loss of parents and
family contribute to the making of a hero?

It takes away the safety net of childhood. A child happy at home, loved by parents, is not a child who is going to set out on a dangerous journey into the unknown. Not usually, anyway. :D

can a fantasy novel be effective without
the idea of good versus evil, whether it's on
a large or small scale?

I like to think so, otherwise my career is screwed. *grins* Um on a more serious note, I find the the idea of good vs evil to be childish and blinkered. True good and true evil are rare. I like my characters to be every shade of grey possible.

what were some favorite fantasy books that
you loved that contain these elements?

Probably Wizard of Earthsea at the top of the list, although I also adored Susan Cooper's books and as for the orphaned child on a (sort-of) quest trope, possibly my favourite YA book ever Dogsbody by Diana Wynne Jones.

In love it when writers play with tropes, and twist them in new and clever ways. Honestly, I don't mind tropes all that much, although if a book manages to hit every. single one. I may just indulge in some novel-throwing.

A lot of readers expect tropes, anyway; they're like a parachute or something. Take all the tropes away and I think readers (particularly fantasy readers, for some reason, get nervous. I still think a good writer can include tropes without making them cheesetastic and predictable.

mao mi, you hit it on the head with why a being without family can make for a better "hero".

also, i'm with you on gray characters. i never knew how much i loved to write them until i wrote silver phoenix. in the novel [SPOILER] i have my heroine do something which is evil--and this elicited strong emotions from some readers. i liked that. i think there is gray in the world, that good people can do bad things and vice versa.

i'm working on gray again in the sequel. loving it.

ooh hey....guess whose book I read while on hols...?

*grins*

I'll give you a wee clue. She does Chinese brush painting. ;)

(there's a not quite a review up on my lj)

how did you manage to get the book?!
and yay! thank you for reading!

you know what i'm talking about then.
and i was a little surprised (altho i'm
not sure why) about reaction from some readers
in regards to her action. but i liked that.

Hee!

I ordered the book through a local on-line book store (take2.co.za) and got it in about 2 weeks.

I don't often get to go to rl book stores because of transport issues but unfortunately I doubt Exclusive Books (the major retailer) is carrying it - YA seems to be a pretty much unknown factor for SA book stores unless we're talking Harry Potter or Twilight.

I'm relatively new to fantasy (I started out writing time-travel.), and I'm also new to writing YA. (I discovered that I probably should have been writing my time-travels as YA.) I love fantasy in movies, and I've loved the few fantasy novels I've read...but somehow I never read too many, perhaps because I was more focused on finding sweet romance.

Anyway, that's why I found this question so interesting to think about...probably because I really don't know what has been used and over used, and what hasn't been. The YA fantasy story I'm writing now has orphans, so I've hit one there. And it is good vs. evil, so that's another. But there's not magicy magic. At least, not exactly. My story is a world within a world... two dimensions with players on both stages. So the "magical element" isn't magic, but is rather learning the totally different rules by which things happen in the hidden dimension. Those dimensions really twist and affect who and what is good and evil as well. Is this an unusual variation of the usual tropes? I don't know. Will it sell? I suppose only time will answer that question, as well.

Regarding your questions...I guess I can't really imagine a fantasy story that wasn't good vs. evil in some form or other. In fact, aren't all stories that have an antagonist good vs. evil to at least a small extent? Of course, different authors (and characters) have different ideas of what is actually evil and what is good, so that creates a lot of variation, as well.

Anyway, thanks for the thought-provoking question, and I have to say I'm quite interested in your book!

kathleen, thanks for commenting! i originally wrote my novel as straight fantasy, not realizing it could fall under YA until i began querying! it sounds like you are creating something different with your novel!

*sputters* You haven't read Harry Potter yet? Go! Read it now!!!

Personally, I like fantasy tropes. They're like reading an old friend. And if a book twists them a little, like Megan Whalen Turner did--ah, perfection.

what would it be like to write a fantasy
novel without any of these elements?
Is that possible? Don't you need some? At least magic, surely?

and would it be so different that
fantasy fans would feel bereft almost, lacking
the familiar and expected?
I wouldn't say expected. Especially today, most fantasy writers are aware of the tropes and are experimenting, trying something new, be it the twist in MWT's book, the tone of Harry Potter, or the new form of magic in Graceling.


beth
bethrevis.blogspot.com

hi beth!! no, i have yet to read HP. i will one day! tho i appreciated the twist in the thief, i couldn't help but wonder if it could be done in a diff way. i know that people didn't like the twist in "atonement", which i thought the author was a genius for.

for some reason, i didn't feel the same for the thief. i enjoyed queen of attolia more--and i'm looking forward to reading the king of attolia!

as for graceling, GIFTS by le guin was nearly the same as far as magic, only given a different name! it came out before graceling and i loved that book as well.

This is such an interesting topic, and has given me a lot to think about my own fantasy novel in the works. It's funny how certain elements seem to want to creep in. For instance, in my story a wisdom figure introduced herself into the story and insisted she be a part of it, even though I hadn't planned for her. I already had another wisdom figure, but I realized he was meant for a supporting character, and my mc needed her own. So, even though she only appears at the beginning and end of the novel, she has crucial information for the mc that helps drive the story forward.

I also have magic in my novel, though not a huge amount. I don't think fantasy novels have to have magic, or at least not huge amounts of it. I just finished reading Heroes of the Valley by Jonathan Stroud, which I enjoyed immensely, and it only had a touch of magic, yet was certainly a fantasy. In my opinion, almost any story that has elements in it that just wouldn't happen in our world could be called fantasy, even though it's not traditional high fantasy with the wizard, dragons, elves and the like.

I am really resisting using the orphan cliche in my novel. It has been done to death, in my opinion, even though I understand why it is used. It just seems like in almost every children's story at least one or both of the parents is missing. My story conveniently get the mc away from home (yes, I'm also using the quest theme) so she is on her own, but her parents are both alive. I understand that this is it's own cliche, so we all have to do what we must to get the mc out on her own. But ever since Bambi, killing off a parent just seems an easy way out to me.

Thanks for the discussion. I'll return here to see more.

Diane
www.dianedawsonhearn.com

diane, isn't if funny? how certain things tell you it has to be. it's like that for me. i don't sit down and decide i want to write something like this, usually, the story lets me know how it should be written. and i'll hold the thought or ponder it--but the story is usually right. =D

as with any cliche, the orphan one has been done. but out of all my reviews, i didn't get on negative saying "omg, the hero was adopted, gosh, we've seen THAT before". and i'm glad. i think we all have our "buttons" as to what we feel is way overused and steer clear from it.

thank you for stopping and commenting! good luck with your novel!

To add to the discussion on good vs. evil, I agree now a days, grey is the trend. Or the anti-hero protagonist. I still think good vs. evil will always be a big aspect in fantasy, but each story would be a varying level. Even "Grey" characters can have one of those aspects in them that they to lean towards. Whatever level works best for the story. My story focuses on good vs. evil, but the good is evil too, so essentially it's evil vs. good vs. evil lol.

christa, yes! the gray is still using
good v evil as a scale. just not on the
extremes.

I also think that a good fantasy story doesn't have to rely on the dichotomy of good vs. evil. That's evident in one my favorite books of all time: The Tombs of Atuan--the second in the Earthsea books. The main character has to carry both good and evil within herself. LeGuin successfully makes us sympathize with Tenar, even though she's responsible for the deaths of several people. She destroys an entire way of life to save herself, but she also destroys her own way of life in agreeing to help Ged. Very compelling stuff.

i love le guin. and i also loved it when
ged lost his magic. wasn't that amazing? i
forget which title but it was a very quiet
book and i absolutely loved it. the series
is fantastic! thanks for toodling over, bryn! =DD

Hi Cindy!

It's funny how our interests in fantasy seem to be so dramatically opposed. You enjoy the good vs evil theme - I shy away from it because I find it's often very shallow, with the Hero(ine) of Utmost Wonderfulness vs the Dark Minions of Evil. A lot of my least favourite authors use this theme to excuse their heroes' actions. Terry Goodkind, for example, presents his hero Richard Rahl as the epitome of all that is Right and Good, and therefore Richard's actions (like slaughtering peace protesters) must be Right and Good by extension.

I'm struggling to think of a good vs evil novel among my favourite books. Actually I've got one - Stephen King's The Stand presents the protagonists as forces of God, essentially, while Randall Flagg represents the Devil. So I guess I'm not diametrically opposed to good vs evil - I'm just tired of the bad examples.

I've also enjoyed fantasy novels that contain no magic, such as Ellen Kushner's fabulous The Privilege of the Sword. Though I have to confess, magic is one of my favourite elements in a novel.

Overall, I enjoy a lot of the darker, grittier fantasy, which tends to avoid or subvert the Hero's Journey tropes and fantasy tropes in general.

Er - I'm Parametric from the Purgatory thread.

i love kushner's novels. i think there may
have been some difficulty marketing it as "fantasy"
however.

did you like LOTR ? that was classic good versus evil.

my own novel has the themes for certain,
but probably not on such a HUGE level. i find
the PERSONAL good versus struggle much more
interesting. i like how good intentions can
lead you down the wrong path.

and i love the thief series by MWT and there isn't
much magic in it at all. and my favorite le guin novel in the wizard of earthsea didn't contain magic or good versus evil.

I'm one of those who believes in fantasy, there has to be some good versus evil. Even if you believe in shades of gray. Otherwise, what hinders the quest, or end goal? What does the hero have to fight against? If it's all environmental factors, IMO, it just isn't as compelling a read.

Of course, you could always write about the dark gray character trying to overcome the lighter grays, for a change of pace. Lol.

Interesting discussion, Cindy--thanks!

i also believe in good versus evil. but not so much on a grand scale necessarily. but something like THE THEIF didn't have it nor QUEEN OF ATTOLIA. it was much more politics and intrigue. personally, i'm not sure if i'm deft enough to write a fantasy without the good/evil scale in some form.

Nooo! There are so many great fantasy novels which have a defined conflict but don't rely on good vs evil. I now want to send you some. ;)

Parametric

I took a class on the Hero's Journey in college and own Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces which talked of the monomyth, as someone stated before. As I was writing my first book, and now my second, it seems sometimes that those elements subconsiously found their way into my story. I sometimes change it to add a little variety, but those elements just seem to work in the journey.

I do agree that a journey does have a quest of some sort, but I have learned that there are two types of journeys: one where someone from the outside comes into the character's life or where the main character leaves his/her home. Both can offer different varieties of quests that push the protagnoist on some type of quest that will always change them in the end. I agree that a journey needs a quest. It is the main reason why a change happens to the character(s).

My husband comes from a non-traditional family where his grandparents raised him. His mother was adopted and his father, from El Salvador, left before he could remember and he has never heard from him again. He has asked the very question of why characters have families that are similar to his own. I, on the other hand, grew up with two parents, brothers, and tons of extended family (42 aunt and uncles!). Still, somehow, we both grew up to become very similar people. However, his story seems much more interesting than mine. It might be easier for me to find myself in the people that are blood-related. However, we both have learned that blood doesn't matter. It is the people that we surround ourselves with. Still, that curiousity and wonder of the people that brought us here, guides us in our decisions and how we see the world. We can also relate to other people since we all hopefully have family in some shape or form.

Ever since watching Miyazaki movies that Disney released at John Lassater's request, I have now seen a different view of good vs. evil. In Disney movies, the good and the bad are clear cut. In Miyazaki movies, you can switch sides or there is a little more compassion. There is that grey area, but we learn from it. We move forward. Sometimes we make more mistakes, but why do people always have to be on one side or the other? What about making a decision in the moment and not being pigeon-holed? That is also what I love about Star Wars. The story of Darth Vader is a story of a villain, and in the end, his son helps him find the path of redemption. Not too many movies or books can provide that compassion. If Star Wars and Miyazaki films can provide us that take, I think fantasy novels can totally do the same thing. It something that I am trying to keep in mind as I write.

I would like to recommend Juliet Marillier books. She has written two YA fantasy books, and even more adult historical fantasy books.

Also, I am attending Comic Con and hope to see you there! Are you planning on selling your novel at the convention and signing? I would love to pick up one.

Thanks for a great post. All this is off the top of my head so I hope it makes sense, haha.

Natasha

wow. awesome comment, natasha.
and strangely, i've had quite a few readers
compare my novel to spirited away. which
i understand is a huge compliment--but i've
yet to see his films. so thank you for mentioning
him here. i love that he, too, likes characters
or themes in shades of gray.

and yes, there is the internal journey and the
external. the external was so much easier and obvious
for me to write and it's also why the sequel is
more of a challenge, i think. there's more of
an internal struggle in this book.

i'll look into juliet marillier. i love historicals
and i love historical fantasies! i'll be at
comicon doing a fantasy panel tentatively scheduled
for thursday afternoon! and there will be a signing
right after that panel!

My husband I just watched Spirited Away again, and I must say, that is a huge compliment. That movie is amazing.

Will you be selling books there? I haven't picked it up yet since our new library opened up in town and I am digging through their catalog to save up to buy directly from authors if I can. :) If not, I will be sure to stop by the local joint and pick it up. I am writing a Japanese-influenced fantasy and am dying to read some novels similar to what I am doing.

Also, I wanted to add, my husband and I were talking more about the orphan thing. He made a really good point about how these losses also can provide the journey or reason for their actions, like revenge (Batman over the death of his parents) or protection (Spiderman wants to make sure no one hurts MJ and Aunt May since he couldn't protect his uncle). It can provide them with a purpose, almost, that might not otherwise present itself.

yes! if you can come to the panel, then there's a signing right after where my books will be for sale and i can sign them! =D i love that you discuss this with your hub. and bring out the geek!

and hoorah on writing more asian-based fantasies!!

But what could be more evil than politics? (lol).

And I'm probably one of those who could find a good vs. evil arc in any story. Para, bring them on! :)

And Natasha, you may have hit the nail on the head for me. More than anything, I love a good redemption. Yet, how can a character be redeemed if there wasn't evil present to begin with? Without evil, there's no redemption necessary. Right?

The whole DV redemption thing is what really sold me on the SW movies.

I think the Vader/Anakin story is a great example of a redemption story.

I don't think Anakin truly became "evil". His actions were evil and turned him into a different person, but I believe deep down that Anakin was still inside him. I think we can always make bad choices, but I like to think we can find some good deep down in a lot of cases. Anakin, sadly, just didn't have a reason to go back since he betrayed his people and he thought he killed Padme. The Force Unleashed, which George Lucas dubbed as canon, (spoiler if you ever plan to play) reveals to us that Vader actually formed the rebellion in the first place. That truly says that something right there.

Sorry- Star Wars geek right here. I was knighted by a circle of Jedi and everything, haha.

This is a very interesting discussion! I'm working on a novel now where I basically hit every one of these tropes except the orphan one -- I figured I already did the orphan in ASH (haha), and this time I wanted to create characters who didn't have to deal with those issues. In fact, I think my main character had to have a very supportive family in order to be who she is.

Other than that, though, I purposely wrote a quest story involving a battle between good and evil. Plus there's a wise woman (or two) along the way, magical talismans, and magic of course. I threw it all in! I certainly hope it's possible to use all these traditional storytelling tropes while writing a new story - LOL! My main angle on it was that I wanted to insert a gay character into a very traditional narrative. I think that does kind of turn things on their heads, and yet it retains the structure of the hero's journey. Why shouldn't the hero be gay, right?

And, Cindy, you need to read Harry Potter! JK Rowling uses a lot of old tales/myths in these books, but she basically proves that differences reside in the details. Sure, the stories may be "old," but they are also undeniably new. And it's that blend of the old and the new that I found so enjoyable with HP.

this is the one based in asia, yes?
i cannot wait to read it!!

Yes, sort of! Hopefully it will work out.

great post and interesting discussion, Cindy! I've only written contemporary realistic fiction so far, but my current WIP seems to be a fantasy. One of my characters is obsessed with fantasy tropes and is having such a great time imagining it during his adventures, so I was just brainstorming for common tropes this morning!

I have your book on my summer reading list, and I'm adding more from your list and from the books your readers are mentioning! my list is growing!!!

beware the ever growing reading list!
i suffer from teh same. ha! and GOOD LUCK
with your first fantasy book. how exciting!
it's difficult for me to imagine writing a story
without fantastic elements...but maybe one day.

mmm, kimchijigae!
whoops! you distracted me! ha!

what a great response! thanks for
sharing titles as well. i personally
do think that you can add something fresh
or a "twist" to well worn fantasy elements--
and it's what many authors are doing these days.

and thank you for supporting my debut!
if you'd like a signed bookplate and bookmark,
just message me! =D

Hi, all! Here are my slightly disorganized thoughts:

The old standards in fantasy can still be useful to help readers feel at home in wildly unfamiliar worlds--for example, China Mieville's new The City and the City (okay, full disclosure: I'm obsessed with this book right now) is a police thriller, with just enough of the familiar elements we know from (fill in your favorite late night police drama) to keep us grounded when we're deposited in a city that's really two cities spliced together in the same space. I think this validates a lot of fantasy tropes--they give the reader a point of reference, and allow the writer to build really outrageous worlds.

The cliches are also really satisfying when they're turned on their heads--the unreliable narrator is a great example (and boy, do I ever love reading a good liar, Kimchijigae).

What gives those tropes a bad name and a bad taste in my mouth as a reader and as a writer is when they appear to be used for the writer and/or the story's convenience, or just to advance the plot. I think what separates a great fantasy from the rest is when the writer challenges all the reader's expectations, even when using what would seem to be just another cliche. There's nothing more satisfying than a good surprise.

About good-vs.-evil--I sort of can't picture a fantasy without this. It might not be white hat/black hat, but even if the Big Bad turns out not to be so bad and then the hero has to go back and confront the centuries of bias that's built up against it in her own community...well, there's still an evil there to be overcome, no?

Here's what I love about good-vs.-evil: villains with complete and utter conviction that their actions are valid and necessary. Villains who think they're the good guys. Hot villains. Particularly if they're sort of unaware of it.

I loved Guy Gavriel Kay! I agree that too much reliance on these storytelling tropes can be one-dimensional. I think, as with retelling fairy tales, it's important to attempt to re-imagine them entirely. I kind of like writing within a set of parameters. I don't see it as limiting so much as focusing -- it helps you to think specifically about certain storytelling elements and how they can be used in a particular tale. Anyway, sounds like the Gene Wolfe book has done something like that. Interesting rec!

Hey these comments are as great as the post! I personally believe that there is no way around hitting some kind of overdone trope or cliche in any book. How can you? There is no such thing as a truly original idea anymore! But it really comes down to execution and how the characters are portrayed.

And quite frankly - timing. I read Eragon simply because of the hype. Why did it do so well when it copied every familiar trope from LOTR, Earthsea, Narnia, Dragonriders of Pern, etc.? I believe it was because it opened up a whole new world of fantasy to readers who had never read the classics. Therefore, to them, it was brand new and wonderful. And that is what happens and there is nothing really wrong with that.

For me, I like bad guys. Always have, always will. And one of my favorite themes is the bad guy redemption theme. I have one in my book and I actually like him better than my main hero. He's bad and he knows he is bad - but it is not because he wishes to be evil, but that it is the way he will achieve all he desires. But I don't want him to become a good guy. He may redeem himself - a little - but he will never be a good guy.

Ellen, your description of your bad guy reminds me of a questionable character I really enjoyed. Not too long ago I read the Bartimaeus books by Jonathan Stroud and really liked the arc of the young magician, Nathaniel/John Mandrake. Stroud took a theme that would seem to be sort of untouchable given than it sounds like a description of the Harry Potter books (a young magician learns his craft in a highly politicized world sharply divided into magicians and non-magicians) and made it entirely different. But Stroud's world is entirely, brilliantly different, the character you sort of think is the hero turns out to be not so heroic (and sort of gets worse and worse and worse the whole time), and the resolution, although set up perfectly, was so entirely unexpected I almost stood up and cheered, except that I was kind of stunned. All in all some nice upsetting of the reader's expectations all the way through.

Kate,

I completely agree with you about the Bartimaeus Books. They are funny, touching, clever and just brilliant. And I was stunned by the ending too, in that I didn't completely expect it, but it turned out to be the perfect way for the story to end.

Do any of you have tragic villains in your stories? My villain is, to me, a tragic character in that he thinks he is doing what he must for the good of his world, but the end does NOT justify his means, and his conscience bothers him. And in the end, when he realizes the complete failure of his vision, it destroys him. Like some of you, I find him a far more interesting character than my mc, so I have some work to do.

Stroud turns the hero story on its head in his newest book, Heroes of the Valley. The protagonist who has grown up on these hero stories slowly learns the truth about what it means to be a real hero. It's a good book with a wonderfully human, flawed and funny mc.

Diane
www.dianedawsonhearn.com

Kate - I read the first two bartimaeus books but never got round to reading the last. I should go pick it up! Thanks for reminding I had a book in a series unread!

Oh, you gotta!! The ending is the BEST ENDING EVAR--or at least it's on the shortlist. Glad to be of assistance!

Odds and Ends:

What a cool discussion!

I remember having a conversation with a co-worker once who insisted that there was no such thing as good or evil at all, ever. I asked him, "Then why do you live a good life?" (He was basically a kind, law-abiding, hard-working individual.) I think simplistic extremes of black and white are boring, but it's hard to have a plot without conflict, and even a flawed hero tends to be, well, heroic!

Talk about tropes always makes me think of Diana Wynne Jones's book, Tough Guide to Fantasyland. In fact, whenever I write about food in a fantasy novel, I'm reminded of her "Stew" entry and try to create a different kind of menu. :)

Then again, my first two fantasy books are mostly about playing with tropes. And all of us in the fantasy genre essentially start with a foundation of fairy tales, folktales, and legends. What I mean is, we have to have building blocks in order to construct our innovative edifices.

P.S. This talk about Bartimaeus reminds me of another well-known author who ends her series in a surprising way: Libba Bray. I guess a lot of readers were upset by the not-so-happily-ever-after ending, going by traditional standards.

Another tropes note: I just read Sherwood Smith's defense of tropes (against Diana Wynne Jones's Tough Guide to Fantasyland, even!). The link is http://www.sherwoodsmith.net/readingriffs/indefensefantasy.html if you want to take a look.

awesome! sherwood is so nice and it reminds me i need to buy her crown duel book to read!!